GNU longevity; McKenzie sparkling; DA in China; party mergers; and Tshwane

It’s been three months since entrepreneur and political activist Rob Hersov shared his perspectives with the BizNews tribe. He does so here with trademark frankness in a thoughtful interview with BizNews editor Alec Hogg. The straight-shooting canary in SA’s political coal mine shares insights gleaned from his own experience and wide range of contacts. As always, when Hersov talks – it’s a must-watch.

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Highlights from the interview

In a recent interview with Alec Hogg on BizNews, entrepreneur Rob Hersov shared his perspectives on South Africa’s current political landscape, particularly focusing on the challenges facing the country’s municipalities and the role of various political parties. Hersov criticized the coalition between the EFF, ActionSA, and ANC in Tshwane, calling it “ludicrous” and doubting its effectiveness. He emphasized that true progress could only be achieved when the DA, the Patriotic Alliance, and other like-minded parties gain sufficient power to drive meaningful change. Hersov argued that the ANC’s patronage network has been detrimental to South Africa’s key institutions, turning them into vehicles for corruption rather than service delivery.

He highlighted the recent improvements at Eskom, attributing them to the introduction of proper business practices and the rooting out of corruption, which has started to stabilize the utility. Hersov also praised initiatives by the DA to investigate and expose corrupt tender processes in ministries where they have influence. He concluded that while the path to recovery is challenging, the focus should remain on empowering the “good guys” to restore governance and infrastructure, ultimately leading to the ANC’s decline in urban areas.

Edited transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___

00:00:08:09 – 00:00:33:23
Alec Hogg
Global citizen, entrepreneur, political activist, and well, the favorite among the BizNews community, Rob Hersov has been away for a while, but here we are. We are catching up with him today. So much has been happening, and Rob will be giving us his insights into many of the important developments here in South Africa.

00:00:34:01 – 00:01:11:17
Alec Hogg
Hey Rob, good to see you. I’m really looking forward to seeing you next week at BNIC1. For a change, you’re not going to be on the podium, but I’m sure you’re going to be peppering a few people with some interesting questions. I do know that those fans of yours who are going to miss you at the next conference can at least book their tickets for March because once again, you’ll be giving us one of your dynamite presentations in March and hopefully introducing us to a different way of thinking about people, as you’ve done with Gayton McKenzie, who suddenly seems to be South Africa’s darling after there was so much negativity around him. If you recall, when we did various interviews with him and indeed when he was at the news conferences, this is no surprise to you, no doubt.

00:01:11:17 – 00:01:24:09
Rob Hersov
Not at all. I mean, I’ve known Gayton for over three years, and he’s the same person I met three and a half years ago: authentic, dynamic, charming, and smart. He’s on the right side of history, and he’s always been the same guy. But what we don’t have anymore is the DA’s ludicrous teaming up with the media to discredit Gayton.

00:01:24:11 – 00:01:46:03
Rob Hersov
You know, the DA, I think, made a huge mistake, and they probably would admit it in private, that Gayton was never a threat to the DA. Gayton was ready to team up with the DA and kick the ANC out of the Western Cape forever. But the DA saw him as a threat, and they created this ludicrous notion that a vote for the PA is a vote for the ANC, which was patently wrong and has been proven to be wrong.

00:01:46:05 – 00:02:14:14
Rob Hersov
And Leon Schreiber, whom I admire immensely, I think he’s going to be one of the best cabinet ministers in this GNU. Every time I sent him a message, he would just send me a simple reply: PA = ANC. It’s pathetic, really. He’s eating his words now. But he’s a very impressive guy. It was a stupid campaign by the DA, and they need to eat their words.

00:02:14:16 – 00:02:38:12
Rob Hersov
Now Gayton is proving to be what he always has been: a dynamic, charismatic politician.

00:02:38:12 – 00:02:44:20
Alec Hogg
Superb politician and a human being as well. He is, he’s always been a little like you, I guess, in a way, unfiltered. He says what he thinks. He wears his heart on his sleeve. And that is very different from what South Africans have been used to.

00:02:44:22 – 00:03:02:17
Rob Hersov
One hundred percent. You know, he said something recently about South African sports. He said we need equal opportunity and not equal results. It’s ludicrous to say the Springbok team needs to have its people of color. What we need to focus on is getting credible athletes out of the townships, out of the homelands, and out of the difficult areas in disadvantaged areas and giving those incredible athletes and entertainers and sportspeople the opportunity to perform because we’ve got such talent in South Africa.

00:03:02:19 – 00:03:40:05
Rob Hersov
But trying to equalize the results is ludicrous. You know, it’s what socialism, which is a failed system, tries to do. But giving equal opportunities is the real route. And he’s been saying that all along. He’s right.

00:03:40:06 – 00:03:52:21
Alec Hogg
So what about this government of national unity? When watching Gayton’s tweets, he’s very in favor of it. He’s actually held himself back from his normal reaction to certain really stupid criticism, where he would have given the guy as bad as he got, but he seems to have almost risen to the occasion, a little bit like Mogoeng Mogoeng when he became Chief Justice.

00:03:52:23 – 00:04:20:15
Alec Hogg
If you recall, he was appointed there by Zuma. But when he became Chief Justice, he took on the mantle of Chief Justice, and he called them into account.

00:04:20:17 – 00:04:28:15
Rob Hersov
When Gayton has come out of the box, he’s absolutely flying; in fact, probably too fast. I think the ANC sees him as a real threat. So I think he’s measuring his performance a little bit more calmly because, you know, he is a man of action. He knows what’s right, and he knows what’s wrong, and he knows how to fix things.

Read more: The Justice Minister & VBS: All the “Red Flags”…

00:04:28:17 – 00:04:48:06
Rob Hersov
And he’s not someone who suffers fools easily. But I think he realizes that he has to measure his performance; otherwise, he becomes the lightning rod, the greatest threat to the ANC and not the DA.

00:04:48:08 – 00:05:00:13
Alec Hogg
So what about showing him? What about this government of national unity? It’s not just Gayton showing the map. You mentioned earlier Leon Schreiber. Dean McPherson seems to be doing a very good job as well. We haven’t heard anything from Steenhuisen, but I guess that’s not surprising. He’s got other responsibilities, one presumes, as the leader of the party. What do you make of it?

00:05:00:15 – 00:05:21:13
Rob Hersov
So I think the DA has a policy of delivering results, keeping him quiet, and then maybe at a hundred days, they’re going to make a big announcement of what they’ve achieved already. I think that’s a smart thing to do. You know, the debate is quite quiet and measured about what they’ve put in place in the press. But I think there’s going to be a big announcement probably in the next 30 to 60 days of what they’ve already achieved in the first hundred days, and it’ll be hugely impressive.

00:05:53:11 – 00:06:18:12
Rob Hersov:
You know, the DA was given some primary portfolios and many secondary portfolios. But then they got, you know, the DGs in probably more important portfolios. They’re going to show the ANC up incredibly. The ANC is going to be seen for what they always are: incompetent, and in some cases, criminal.

00:06:18:14 – 00:06:39:03
Rob Hersov:
It’s going to be a bit of a shock to the system when the DA announces what they’ve done and what the ANC hasn’t done for 30 years. Gayton will hold together with the GNU, and maybe that will hold together at least until 2027. Two things are going to happen in 2027. You’re hearing one of them first.

00:06:39:05 – 00:07:04:03
Rob Hersov:
Yeah, and you remember that I predicted the national election was going to be on May 22nd. I made that prediction six months in advance, and I was only one week off. Well, I’m making a new prediction: the municipals are not going to be in 2026; they’re going to be in February 2027. That’s prediction one. The second thing is the ANC conference in 2027.

00:07:04:05 – 00:07:24:22
Rob Hersov:
So I think the GNU will hold together at least until then. Who knows what will happen when we have the municipals and when the ANC conference happens? Will Ramaphosa still be recalled? Will Paul Mashatile play his cards? He’s a threat. He’s always been very close to the EFF. I don’t know how close he is to MK.

00:07:25:00 – 00:07:35:04
Rob Hersov:
The EFF is increasingly becoming irrelevant. MK is increasingly becoming the great threat. I think we’re fine until 2027.

00:07:35:06 – 00:07:45:11
Alec Hogg:
Why would the election be in February 2027? And also, November 21st was the previous election. So it should take you to November 2026. Do they have a little bit of leeway?

00:07:45:13 – 00:07:48:14
Rob Hersov:
Yeah, they do. It’s very…

00:07:48:16 – 00:08:10:23
Alec Hogg:
Okay. So three clicks on it. It was so interesting, Robert. If you’ve been following on social media, the pictures that have been posted by McPherson and Steenhuisen about the two of them meeting President Xi this week, it’s extraordinary. To outsiders looking in, not long ago they would have been among the great critics of communist China.

00:08:11:00 – 00:08:23:22
Alec Hogg:
They looked like errant schoolboys, star-struck in engaging with the Chinese premier. Is this expected?

00:08:24:00 – 00:08:48:04
Rob Hersov:
Look, South Africa has this moronic approach to international affairs, dealing with gangster states and loony bins like North Korea and Iran. It’s just insane, completely insane. But I think it’s quite smart of John and the team to at least meet these people and hear them out, just to find out exactly what’s going on.

00:08:48:05 – 00:08:56:13
Rob Hersov:
What is the relationship? What is South Africa getting? What is South Africa giving in return? So I think it’s intelligent for them to get in front of these people.

00:08:56:15 – 00:09:12:03
Alec Hogg:
But maybe also eyes being opened, the scales being removed. We do know that the chaos in the United States does not exactly make it the role model it might have been 30, 40, 50 years ago for democracy.

00:09:12:05 – 00:09:33:05
Rob Hersov:
30, 40, 50 years ago, in the 70s, America had strikes on the streets, things being burned, everyone running wild, the Vietnam War—it was a pretty sorry state. But today, what America is facing is just some polarization, not the disasters they had in ’75.

00:09:33:05 – 00:09:57:18
Rob Hersov:
America is still by far the strongest nation in the world economically. All the great developments on the technology front are coming from America. America is the dominant gorilla on this planet, and I don’t think it’s in any state of negativity. I mean, if Kamala Harris comes in, things change on the margin. If Trump comes in, things change on the margin. But America is still the dominant power by far. I don’t write them off.

00:10:06:01 – 00:10:30:21
Alec Hogg:
Don’t get too close to China. Don’t put all your eggs in that basket. Remember the US. It’s very interesting you mention that, Rob, because our partners at the Financial Times today had a piece about the difficulty the Chinese are having in producing their own chips, their own computer chips. The Americans have stopped sending or allowing Nvidia to sell to them.

00:10:30:23 – 00:10:53:22
Alec Hogg:
And Huawei is trying to produce chips, but after a lot of money being thrown at it, they just can’t get it right. So there’s these kinds of realities that one has to always be mindful of. Just coming back to South Africa itself, the rand has done well since the election. It’s up about two rand against the US dollar.

00:10:54:00 – 00:10:58:23
Alec Hogg:
The big question our community would have for you is: Are we becoming investable?

00:10:59:01 – 00:11:27:01
Rob Hersov:
Not really. You know, I think the investability of South Africa is still dictated by the political realities. The government, the real levers of power and ideology, are still held by the ANC, which is a leftist, quasi-socialist, patronage-based, cadre-based, mafia-type organization. I don’t think the ANC is going to survive.

00:11:27:02 – 00:11:51:15
Rob Hersov:
I think, you know, in five years’ time, the ANC will have disintegrated or fragmented into smaller pieces. It doesn’t speak with one voice. They had no idea at that conference what they actually represent, and they still have COSATU and the Communist Party as part of the ANC. It is moronic in this day and age to still have a Communist Party.

00:11:51:17 – 00:12:01:03
Rob Hersov:
I mean, you know, Gwede Mantashe is a member of the Communist Party. How stupid is that? He should be embarrassed to have that against his name.

00:12:01:05 – 00:12:01:12
Alec Hogg:
You know.

00:12:01:12 – 00:12:02:08
Rob Hersov:
So the ANC, right?

00:12:02:08 – 00:12:24:05
Alec Hogg:
You didn’t see progress on that front. And I guess for many people, the split in the ANC has happened. It is MK and the Zuma faction, the Zondo Commission stars, all being agglomerated into one organization. You feel that there’s still more fracturing to come.

00:12:24:07 – 00:12:44:22
Rob Hersov:
Yeah, because I think there’s a sort of quasi-capitalist side in there. You know, Gwede Mantashe just moves with the wind; he’s whatever you want him to be the next day. But I think there’s a sort of quasi-capitalist group in the ANC that should split off and maybe form a new party with the DA, the PA, and others.

00:12:45:00 – 00:13:13:10
Rob Hersov:
But then there’s COSATU and the Communists, who have no relevance anymore in the ANC. At some point, they will probably spin off, fall apart, or disintegrate. So, the ANC, I think, has got more to lose and much further to fall. I don’t know if that benefits MK or creates a whole new, you know, lunatic pole or lunatic group, but I think the ANC is ultimately falling apart.

00:13:13:12 – 00:13:36:02
Alec Hogg:
There was a very interesting conversation I had with Songezo Zibi, who I haven’t seen for some years. He’s now gone into politics. He’s a sensible, thoughtful human being, very smart as well. And he said in an interview this week that he expects there are going to be consolidations or mergers of political parties. And it was interesting.

00:13:36:02 – 00:13:51:01
Alec Hogg:
I did a few numbers, and if you put together the non-ANC parties like the DA, IFP, and others—like Songezo’s Rise Mzansi, which is small at the moment, it’s young, and BOSA—

00:13:51:03 – 00:13:52:17
Rob Hersov:
PA.

00:13:52:19 – 00:14:12:09
Alec Hogg:
Yeah, ActionSA—you’ve got a significant block already. Given that many of them are newcomers to the scene or have momentum on their side, this could be a joker in the pack. Do you think he’s got it right? I suppose he’s looking at it from a business point of view, saying we’re so fragmented.

00:14:12:13 – 00:14:24:01
Alec Hogg:
Let’s put a few mergers together. Songezo is already talking to others, to Mmusi and others, and saying let’s put together something where we do have strength in unity.

00:14:24:03 – 00:14:45:19
Rob Hersov:
I think he’s right. I mean, currently, Rise Mzansi, BOSA, and the others are of no consequence in South Africa right now. I mean, Rise Mzansi raised a hell of a lot of money and delivered nothing in terms of election results. You know, they were just too weak on certain issues. Gayton was strong on issues and stayed consistent all along. Rise Mzansi was too fluffy and soft, and they’re of no consequence right now.

00:14:45:19 – 00:15:11:21
Rob Hersov:
So I do think he’s right to pull together Mmusi and others and form a new centrist party; that does make sense. But I think what would make more sense is for the DA to get off its arrogant high horse, realize it is the second most important party in the country with 21%, which is a very strong position, and make up with the PA and other parties, pulling them together into a new party. I think that’s probably more relevant.

Read more: Rob Hersov: A roadmap for South Africa, what our country needs

00:15:11:23 – 00:15:24:16
Alec Hogg:
But the feedback we’re getting is that there’s a lot of unhappiness among those parties about the way they were treated by the DA in the Moonshot Pact.

00:15:24:18 – 00:15:57:01
Rob Hersov:
Absolutely. You can see the reaction of Herman Mashaba and ActionSA. They were, “We’ll never do business with the ANC. We’re never, ever going to be partnered with the ANC,” and stayed loyal to the DA to their detriment. And now look at them in Tshwane—they’ve teamed up with the ANC and the FF+.

00:15:57:03 – 00:16:05:01
Rob Hersov:
It’s kind of, you know, whatever keeps me relevant I’ll do, is what Herman seems to be doing.

00:16:05:03 – 00:16:07:18
Alec Hogg:
What about Tshwane? How are you reading that?

00:16:07:19 – 00:16:21:00
Rob Hersov:
That’s ludicrous, really. The EFF, ActionSA, and ANC think they can, you know, work together and try it. It’s kind of stupid, really. It’s not going to work.

00:16:21:02 – 00:16:40:23
Alec Hogg:
So, if you had them in a room—and I know you’ve tried this, Rob—people don’t know how much you’ve done behind the scenes, getting these warring parties together, trying to get them to maybe not just see… well, not necessarily to see things your way, but just to find each other. And there’s so many egos.

00:16:40:23 – 00:16:56:06
Alec Hogg:
There’s so much personality that gets involved. If you could bring them together, what would your message be to all of those parties in any way? Cilliers Brink certainly seems to be doing a good job by all accounts.

00:16:56:08 – 00:17:30:06
Rob Hersov:
So, I think it’s not going to happen immediately. It’s going to happen down the line because the minute people see the difference that the DA, Patriotic Alliance, and a few others will have made in a very short period of time in terms of efficiencies, changes, and tackling corruption, they’ll realize that those are the people to back. And I think the municipal elections are really going to show the ANC out in every single urban area.

00:17:30:07 – 00:17:59:19
Rob Hersov:
The ANC will be dead in 2024, and at last, I think the DA and a few others will get well over 50% and be able to fix Johannesburg. But it’s unfixable right now. Unless the good guys have over 50%, it’s not even worth trying because there are too many hands on too many tillers. You know, you can fix some parts, but then the ANC cadres and gangsters will keep ripping Jo’burg apart with other hands on the tillers.

00:17:59:21 – 00:18:10:20
Rob Hersov:
So, I think we need a bit of water under the bridge. We need to allow the good guys to show what they can do in a short period of time, and then the voters will start to notice.

00:18:10:22 – 00:18:11:09
Alec Hogg:
And the…

00:18:11:11 – 00:18:14:14
Rob Hersov:
I don’t think it can happen. It can’t happen now.

00:18:14:16 – 00:18:16:10
Alec Hogg:
Who would the good guys be?

00:18:16:12 – 00:18:27:04
Rob Hersov:
DA, Patriotic Alliance, ActionSA, FF+, Rise Mzansi, BOSA, COPE, IFP, ACDP—those guys.

00:18:27:06 – 00:18:29:20
Alec Hogg:
Right. So what’s in all of this for…

00:18:30:00 – 00:18:35:18
Rob Hersov:
Sorry. And the capitalist wing of the ANC. You know, the…

00:18:35:18 – 00:18:36:18
Alec Hogg:
Sort of the…

00:18:36:20 – 00:18:38:03
Rob Hersov:
BEE types.

00:18:38:05 – 00:18:49:20
Alec Hogg:
For the ANC right now, what did Ramaphosa do this for? Was it holding onto power so that the cadres could eat until they can’t eat anymore?

00:18:50:02 – 00:19:18:20
Rob Hersov:
Correct. The ANC is a patronage network, okay? They’re like the vampire squid—they capture the economy and they suck it dry. You know, South African Airways was an airline and became an employment agency. Eskom, the same thing—it was just a place where the pigs could get into the trough and steal as much as they can. And what’s happening now is, you know, the appointment of Nyathi and… I can’t remember the other guy’s name…

00:19:18:20 – 00:19:40:11
Rob Hersov:
…at Eskom has brought proper business practices and efficiency to Eskom and is rooting out corruption. I mean, they’ve laid off a whole lot of people and created inefficiencies in the system, and Eskom is starting to right itself. I mean, plus, of course, the private sector getting into renewables is taking a lot of pressure, and the economy’s not growing.

00:19:40:13 – 00:20:06:11
Rob Hersov:
They’ve brought efficiencies into the system and showed the ANC, you know, when the cold light of day shines on the tenderpreneurs, the inefficiency, and all the gangsterism that’s taking place, the only option the ANC has is to allow people to fix things. So, you know, here comes the light of the DA and the PA shining onto corruption.

00:20:06:12 – 00:20:26:17
Rob Hersov:
And I think John Steenhuisen has just announced that in all the ministries where the DA has the minister or the deputy minister, they’re going to investigate all the tenders that have taken place in those ministries. So, we’re going to be showing the gangsters that there’s going to be no escape.

00:20:26:18 – 00:20:34:06
Alec Hogg:
One step at a time. Rob Hersov, as always, thank you for your insights. I’m Alec Hogg from BizNews.com.

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