Mmusi Maimane – The real threat to the GNU is how those outside Cyril’s executive understand it

Former Leader of the Opposition Mmusi Maimane says he’s loving getting into the guts of the governing structure though his chairmanship of the Appropriation @ Committee. In this interview with BizNews editor Alec Hogg he looks at how much Parliament itself has changed – and while hopeful, warns that politicians are courting extreme danger when allowing what went on in Tshwane, where he says they have put the settling of scores above serving the people.

Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.

Watch here

Listen here

Highlights from the Interview

In a comprehensive interview with Alec Hogg from BizNews, Mmusi Maimane, leader of Build One South Africa (BOSA), discusses his views on the political and economic future of South Africa. He emphasizes the importance of constructive opposition, highlighting his role in appropriations and working with various stakeholders, including the Treasury and the ANC, to prioritize infrastructure development. Maimane stresses the need to borrow responsibly to build key infrastructure in areas such as logistics, electricity, and digital infrastructure, which will stabilize and boost the economy.

He also discusses the importance of reconnecting democracy to the people, advocating for higher voter turnout in the 2029 elections. Maimane believes political realignment is inevitable, as political figures shift between parties. He underscores the need for future leadership to uphold the rule of law and maintain constitutional integrity, irrespective of party affiliations.

Maimane calls for collaboration with like-minded parties to fight corruption, build bridges across political divides, and improve the country’s education system. He advocates for electoral reform that would allow for more direct accountability of politicians to their constituents. Ultimately, Maimane is optimistic about the future, foreseeing a new political landscape and better governance by 2029.

___STEADY_PAYWALL___

Edited transcript of the Interview

00:00:07:04 – 00:00:29:03

Alec Hogg
Mmusi Maimane, the leader of Build One South Africa (BOSA), is with us. Well, Mmusi, without giving any long introductions, it’s lovely to be talking to you again. You’re in a completely new guise—you’re back in Parliament, no longer the leader of the opposition. Now you are the leader of a smaller party. How’s it been in this different role?

00:00:29:05 – 00:00:52:16

Mmusi Maimane
Alec, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a very different place compared to what, as you’ve described, the previous terms in Parliament have been like. But one of the things I’ve absolutely enjoyed is not only being part of South Africa’s democracy during this new transition, but also the framework of the new Progressive Caucus.

00:00:52:18 – 00:01:23:11

Mmusi Maimane
If you like, this caucus is almost akin to the Democrat Centrist Caucus, where we’re trying to establish a space for parties that share common values to coalesce. It’s been interesting from that perspective. Additionally, I’ve enjoyed being the Chair of the Appropriations Committee. This committee handles the budget that South Africans are so used to seeing tabled—the mid-term budget statement and the actual budget presented in February are processed by the committee I chair.

00:01:23:11 – 00:01:43:14

Mmusi Maimane
So, I’ve really enjoyed being in the entrails of government, understanding how government spends its money, and addressing the fact that while we often talk about corruption, we also need an honest conversation about government departments’ performance and delivery in this regard.

00:01:43:20 – 00:02:09:08

Alec Hogg
After this election, we were assured that there would be an upgrade in the talent pool in Parliament. But it’s interesting to see how the talent is being deployed, especially with the ANC at 40%. You’ve got a big job, Songezo Zibi’s got a big job, Gayton McKenzie, he’s got a big job, and so on. How are you finding the coalescing of perhaps the governors on behalf of us, the people, who have been cursing our governors for so long rather than praising them?

00:02:09:10 – 00:02:15:12

Alec Hogg
How is that working out?

00:02:15:18 – 00:02:45:08

Mmusi Maimane
Look, I think what is more important now is that Parliament—ironically, after the building burnt down—has changed. Numbers matter, but they matter less in the sense that Parliament doesn’t vote on everything all the time. What Parliament now does is focus on reconfigured committees, committees that have members from various political parties.

00:02:45:10 – 00:03:14:14

Mmusi Maimane
I think the seventh administration is well-poised to benefit from good ideas and strong individuals who bring sensible policy to the table. I can think practically when I look at some of the issues on the table, like the proposed 44% tariff increase from Nersa. That’s something that historically would have passed through Parliament without much discussion. Now, there’s a new discussion, with multiple parties agreeing that citizens cannot bear the brunt of the previous administration’s failures to safeguard Eskom’s finances. There are many other issues like this.

00:03:14:14 – 00:03:39:01

Mmusi Maimane
So, what I think is happening in Parliament is very different from when I was the leader of the opposition. It feels more vibrant. There’s a greater degree of uncertainty because no one party can rely on its majority to pass legislation—whether good or bad for citizens. And to your point about talent, now, because of that urgency to find the best ideas, if you can put forward good suggestions, you can have a greater influence, even if you don’t have an outwardly large voice in Parliament.

00:03:39:05 – 00:04:08:01

Mmusi Maimane
Lastly, I think Parliament is now a springboard to speak directly to South Africans. One of my frustrations in the previous term was the disconnect between Parliament’s work and what citizens were going through. It often felt like while citizens were enduring loadshedding, Parliament was discussing something else entirely. While crime was rampant, Parliament was discussing unrelated matters. I think the seventh administration has an opportunity to elevate Parliament to its correct role in society.

00:04:08:03 – 00:04:29:13

Alec Hogg
That’s really good news. But let’s turn to something that might not be such good news—or is it? What do you make of what’s been happening in Tshwane? Again, you’re an independent voice, and you know Herman Mashaba well. What do you make of all this?

00:04:29:13 – 00:04:44:07

Mmusi Maimane
To be dead honest, I am absolutely annoyed and angry on behalf of the people of Tshwane. The first issue is that you’re seeing a dichotomy between what is happening at the national level in government and the provincial or local government level.

00:04:44:09 – 00:05:21:09

Mmusi Maimane
There are two key problems. First, I would highlight that in the configuration of the government of national unity, I’m not convinced that the DA has been effective in bringing its own policy influence into the discussion. It has become more about lobbying for positions, which South Africans have now become accustomed to.

Read more: BizNews Briefing: Maimane, De Beer; Piet Viljoen; Taxi Mafia; Hizbollah; York Timber; Renergen

00:05:45:17 – 00:06:08:09

Mmusi Maimane:
Now you’ve got ministerial positions for Party A and Party B, but what we don’t have as South Africans is a clear policy framework that guides where we are going and who are the best players to take us there. The second issue is whether we can objectively say things have gotten better or worse.

00:06:08:12 – 00:06:42:04

Mmusi Maimane:
The mechanism of a motion of no confidence was never intended to settle political scores, which is what I believe Fiction SA is doing. It was always meant to give confidence that the government was doing the right or wrong thing. When you use these tools for political purposes, you leave citizens lingering on the sidelines—many of them faithful, now wondering who they can hold accountable for refuse removal, electricity, and basic services in that municipality. More profoundly, there is the crisis in Hammanskraal with water.

00:06:42:06 – 00:07:08:16

Mmusi Maimane:
But you also let citizens believe that politics is prioritized over the people. I genuinely believe the parties have failed the people of Tshwane, and this failure could have quite profound consequences for what happens in that city. What I would really like to see is a coherent plan. It’s immaterial, in some ways, who the mayor should or shouldn’t be.

00:07:08:19 – 00:07:32:03

Mmusi Maimane:
What matters is having a plan that serves the citizens. And in coalition management, as I showed between 2016 and 2019, when Herman Mashaba was mayor of Johannesburg, we tended to have an upfront written contract detailing the things that should be done in that municipality, what must be achieved.

00:07:32:08 – 00:07:51:17

Mmusi Maimane:
When you do that, you ensure you don’t have frivolous political motions of no confidence, and you keep communicating to citizens about the victories, the things you are meant to be doing, and where you are falling short. I must concede, I find this situation a betrayal of the people.

00:07:51:19 – 00:08:05:01

Mmusi Maimane:
I feel that none of us have been well-informed about the updates on governance. This tells you a story that, sadly, it’s the triumph of politicians over the people.

00:08:05:03 – 00:08:26:20

Alec Hogg:
But how does this happen, considering that the ANC is the party moving the deckchairs around, and yet, at the government of national unity level, it appears to have a good working relationship with the DA in particular? In this case, it seems to be hijacking what the DA has been trying to do.

00:08:26:22 – 00:08:57:13

Mmusi Maimane:
I would have thought that by this point, the negotiations would be clearer. I think the first point to understand is where the ANC itself sits. My reading of the situation is that beyond the members who sit in executive seats, there doesn’t seem to be true alignment regarding what a government of national unity means.

00:08:57:15 – 00:09:38:12

Mmusi Maimane:
The second issue is the moral question about whether a coalition with the DA can deliver the economic outcomes required. Nationally, South Africa has been growing at 0.1% for the last ten years. We are facing a fiscal crisis. The point that the governing party seems to be trying to prove is that they don’t necessarily need to coalesce with the DA, as the economic and service delivery indicators are not heading in the right direction.

00:09:38:14 – 00:10:04:10

Mmusi Maimane:
Without foregrounding this grand discussion—whether it’s about a government of national unity or a grand coalition—with a coherent plan addressing the core issues, we end up playing musical chairs with positions. The headache of the next local government elections looms larger than it should. Instead, we should be focusing on establishing governments that work for the people.

00:10:04:12 – 00:10:36:10

Mmusi Maimane:
Ultimately, I think that individuals in all their respective parties need to sober up, understand what is at stake here, and focus on serving the citizens of Tshwane and South Africa at large. Tshwane is symbolic, and we shouldn’t treat it as a sideshow. We need to recognize that it represents the kind of crisis that citizens are facing, and this crisis is not just political—it’s real for the people.

00:10:36:12 – 00:11:00:05
Mmusi Maimane
It is borne out of politics. So I would urge President Ramaphosa to table a plan that works with all the respective parties. Secondly, once we have that plan, identify the right players to implement it. Let’s find the best mayor for the city of Tshwane, and let’s create certain rules that govern coalitions. For example, you can’t move motions of no confidence. I mean, you can only move one a year, which is true in Parliament. It must be a real accountability mechanism; otherwise, you force Tshwane into a revolving door of mayors, in the same way as Johannesburg has gone through.

00:11:00:07 – 00:11:23:06
Mmusi Maimane
Thirdly, rather than negotiating behind closed doors, let’s do it in public, in transparent spaces. That way, citizens know what the plan is, what the accountability mechanisms are, and they can have confidence in that government. My fear is not just about the opposition, or even what happens with the ANC. My fear is that citizens take matters into their own hands, and when they withdraw their support, I promise you, our social contract between citizens and government will fail.

00:11:23:06 – 00:11:40:21
Alec Hogg
What about the rank and file of the ANC? When you say, as you have now, that outside of the executive, maybe the penny hasn’t dropped that the ANC has only 40%. It can’t rule the way it did in the past. But do the ANC members, these parliamentarians you’ve worked with for many years, get that?

00:11:40:23 – 00:12:02:08
Mmusi Maimane
I think the first point I want to make, and maybe make differently, is that it’s not that the penny hasn’t dropped that the ANC doesn’t have an outright majority. It is that the choice of who to coalesce with could have been made with other players. That’s something the ANC needs to resolve going forward. But I think that conversation is complex, given the duality of our society.

00:12:02:10 – 00:12:41:06
Mmusi Maimane
If you’re in the upper echelons of society, with a market-based outlook, then this coalition may make sense, because the currency is responding positively to it. But if you’re an ordinary ANC branch member, where people you led don’t have jobs, and they still don’t have jobs today, or crime has increased with no reprieve, you may feel skeptical. You may question whether a market-based, capitalist framework can continue to deliver outcomes different from your current experience.

00:12:41:06 – 00:13:20:18
Mmusi Maimane
That’s why I emphasize the need for a cogent plan that not only incorporates market interests but also demonstrates to people on the ground—those hustling every day—that this government will work for them. The last thing we need is a discussion among elites that ignores the fact that the majority of citizens are still desperate for radical change. They’re growing impatient and either opting out of democracy or supporting parties that advocate for revolutionary actions.

00:13:20:20 – 00:14:02:23
Mmusi Maimane
So, as you said, has the penny dropped? I think it’s important to note that the chips are up in the air. How they may fall is uncertain, and it may not always favor the ANC. Therefore, the strategic imperative for South Africa is to build a centrist caucus where the majority of citizens, who are desperate for a blend of market-driven policies and government care, can find representation. This centrist voice must advocate for the rule of law and ethical leadership.

00:14:03:00 – 00:14:37:02
Mmusi Maimane
More importantly, when we elect leaders, we need them to be ethical and to act as role models. That’s what the majority of South Africans want. We must build that voice because the future of this country cannot be a declining ANC and a rising MK, like a seesaw. We must project a different vision for the 2029 elections. I believe South Africans want that centrist voice to hold, because if the center holds, the country can move forward. That is the urgent project.

00:14:37:04 – 00:15:10:18
Alec Hogg
But from your own perspective, from BOSA’s perspective, you came into the party, into the election pretty late. Now you have a couple more years before the 2026 local elections. Are you seeing that you’ll be able to, with other like-minded people, create this centrist voice? Are you seeing momentum there?

00:15:37:17 – 00:16:06:00

Mmusi Maimane
I think there’ll be more of it. I think I count it an absolute privilege to be able to work in appropriations, and I’ve been in relatively good relationships with Treasury, the Minister of Finance, and people in the ANC, because the promise we made in all negotiations was that we wanted to be that constructive voice, that constructive, if you like, opposition voice—one that’s constructive and wants to build.

00:16:06:00 – 00:16:37:13

Mmusi Maimane
And so, in taking on appropriations, you can be assured that, let alone first pass was interest, but the interest was in saying, let’s not just borrow money to pay living expenses, to use simple language, but let’s borrow money to build infrastructure because South Africa is facing an infrastructure decay. Let’s borrow money to stabilize on both projects, whether it be logistics in the country or electricity or digital infrastructure, because that will help our economy.

Read more: Brave bus boss takes on the taxi Mafia, the police – and the government

00:16:37:15 – 00:16:57:03

Mmusi Maimane
But let’s, in the midst of all that, make sure that appropriations, whatever Rand we spend, is to the benefit of the citizen at all levels of society. That is my mantra within the committees and the fight, and that is my guarantee, even to those who sit in the ANC or in any other space.

00:16:57:03 – 00:17:30:15

Mmusi Maimane
And that’s been a privilege to be able to do. But the second bit about that is that, given we came into the elections and we weren’t happy with the results, we wanted to do better. But we think that we’ve got to remarry democracy back to the people because the last thing we want as a country is to have a discussion in Cape Town that has no implication for someone sitting in Khayelitsha, in Alexandra, or whatever the community is. You want to make sure that there’s always that tangible link because the 2029 elections must be an election where we see a higher turnout, not a declining one.

00:17:30:20 – 00:17:51:10

Mmusi Maimane
That would not be a healthy sign for South Africans. And I really am confident that actually between like-minded parties—and there will be others because, in truth, there are some who think like we do even within the ANC and some might be within other parties—I think the movement of political players is going to accelerate going forward.

00:17:51:10 – 00:18:10:23

Mmusi Maimane
And I want to say to citizens, it is a natural part of realignment of politics that people will end up in different spaces that you may not have expected them to be. But it’s a good thing because actually the chips are up, but they haven’t settled. So we are going to look towards what happens to South Africa that is not led by President Ramaphosa.

00:18:11:00 – 00:18:35:23

Mmusi Maimane
We have to think about that because we have to be able to say, wherever the next leadership is, they need to be able to advance democratic constitutional rule of law. That is an important project to build. And then furthermore, along with many others, we’re trying to say to ourselves, how do we maintain the integrity of the leadership that comes to Parliament?

00:18:35:23 – 00:18:52:13

Mmusi Maimane
How do we keep the rules? How do we make sure that constitutionalism is upheld? That is the job I’ve got to do. And in that instance, it isn’t only reliant on the numbers in Parliament, but is reliant on our legal systems and what our citizens are able to do in that regard. So I’m quite excited about that action.

00:18:52:17 – 00:19:10:00

Alec Hogg
So give us a plan, make it transparent, tell the people what you’re doing in Parliament, and they will come to the party and they will take a greater part, and perhaps reverse, as you said earlier, that declining trend of voting.

00:19:10:02 – 00:19:33:00

Mmusi Maimane
I mean, the first thing is to build relationships with parties that are like-minded. I think that’s important. Like I said earlier, you’ve got this JNU, which represents 72% of Parliament as things stand at the moment. You’ve got the Progressive Caucus, which is a combination of the EFF, MK, which is about 20% of it.

00:19:33:02 – 00:19:58:17

Mmusi Maimane
The remainder may seem small or like the third-largest component of that, but it’s an important component because you’ve got to build bridges all across those parties, ensuring that at least members of Parliament can have conversations about the things we fight for. How do we safeguard the following things? Constitutionalism, which is important because it’s our Constitution that has saved us through many instances.

00:19:58:19 – 00:20:31:07

Mmusi Maimane
The second thing is how do we, in a centrist way, find policy positions that allow both for market competence and a state that safeguards its own citizens? As I said earlier, how do we ensure there’s a rule of law in fighting crime and preventing extortion and the issues of state capture that happen in both the public and private sectors? In the private sector, it might be called a Mafia State, but it’s no different from its pariah-like behavior in the public service.

00:20:31:09 – 00:20:54:18

Mmusi Maimane
Third, how do we build an education system that allows progress? And I’ve been working with the education portfolio committee and the Minister of Education to say, let’s improve educational outcomes all the way through. We, as a progressive caucus, want an educated citizenship, and we’ve got to finance that.

00:20:54:23 – 00:21:27:09

Mmusi Maimane
And lastly, maintaining an anti-corruption stance. So we are building that conversation. And then from a constituency perspective, as you know, I’ve been very strong in fighting for independence. In some ways, yes, I want people to be able to directly vote for their representatives and hold politicians and all public officials directly accountable.

00:21:27:15 – 00:21:50:05

Mmusi Maimane
So I’m working on that project, and we are attracting new candidates all across the country who are working in their communities. And now, because the electoral amendment hasn’t changed sufficiently—hopefully, it will by 2029—we’re working on that in Parliament. I’m also saying to the people, let’s select the best people, because when we do that, we can stimulate the economy.

00:21:50:05 – 00:21:59:09

Mmusi Maimane
We can hold our leaders accountable. And I’m sure of it, that we’ll see a different electoral outcome come 2029.

00:21:59:09 – 00:22:04:02

Alec Hogg
Mmusi Maimane is the leader of BOSA. I’m Alec Hogg from BizNews.com.

Read also