Behind Jozi chaos: Alex mafia, ANC, EFF

The reckless spending of money and the waste and corruption in the City of Johannesburg is not going to stop because ActionSA is getting into bed with the African National Congress (ANC). That is the warning from Democratic Alliance (DA) councillor and former Citizen Editor Martin Williams. “There’s absolutely no way ActionSA can put a spoke in that wheel,” he says. In fact, says Williams, any party that gets into an alliance with the “divided and corrupt” ANC in the province will end up in an “unstable relationship because you don’t know who to trust within the ANC”. He adds that the ANC doesn’t even need ActionSA “to do anything” if the Economic Freedom Fighters (EFF) is on board. “So they could be playing off each other forever, at least until 2026 when the next election happens”. He also dissects the different factions in the ANC and describes how the connection of the “Alex Mafia” weaves through it all. While Williams believes that a working relationship between a “reasonable” ANC and the DA is the only way to start turning the City around, “we cannot get into bed with the ANC as currently constituted”. Instead, the DA will work toward gaining a commanding position in the 2026 municipal elections.

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Edited transcript of the interview  ___STEADY_PAYWALL___

Chris Steyn (00:02.692)

Can Johannesburg still be saved after years of corruption and mismanagement? We speak to Democratic Alliance councillor and former Editor of the Citizen newspaper, Martin Williams. Welcome, Martin.

Martin Williams (00:15.993)

Thank you Chris. Thanks for having me. First time on.

Chris Steyn (00:21.208)

Martin, what do you make of the new deal pending between ActionSA and the African National Congress?

Martin Williams (00:22.541)

Yes.

Martin Williams (00:32.78)

Obviously, we don’t know the details of the deal, but my first observation is the obvious one about hypocrisy.

Martin Williams (00:45.293)

So it’s obviously hypocritical for the party that said it wouldn’t deal with the ANC for another 300 years to just in a matter of weeks be opening the door and getting into bed with them. But apart from that, I don’t think it can work and I can expand on why. I think the main reason is that the ANC itself is unstable and any party that gets into bed with the ANC is looking for an unstable relationship or will end up in an unstable relationship because you don’t know who to trust within the ANC. Who’s on top and who’s calling the shots.

Chris Steyn (01:31.716)

Can you just dissect the different factions in the African National Congress for us?

Martin Williams (01:37.644)

My understanding is that at national level, Ramaphosa, although he’s a clear leader and all that, he is opposed internally by people such as Panyaza Lesufi most visibly, and perhaps even by Paul Mashatile in a different fashion. We can look at later. 

There’s provincially, we’ve got Premier Panyaza Lesufi opposing. Then within the ANC at Joburg regional level, that’s who are in charge of the City, Dada Morero, a Finance MMC, is going to be their candidate apparently. But there was quite a lot of dissension within the regional and local ANC about that because there’s another MMC who’s very popular and that’s Loyisu Masuku who is a very famous surname if you remember the COVID matters. Yeah, so she also had some support and they aren’t united behind Dada Morero. The divisions within ANC are obvious and they have been exacerbated by the ANC’s failure at the national and provincial elections to reach 50%. I think that plays into the stability of Joburg.

Chris Steyn (03:08.462)

Why has the Premier been so defiant towards the President? And why has the ANC in Guateng been so defiant towards the Government of National Unity? What is behind that?

Martin Williams (03:21.777)

Yeah. Well, I think what they’re trying to protect, not just from the national level ANC, but from the very active DA in the province, is their channels of corruption, and they don’t want the DA to take over any of the portfolios where there’s heavy money involved, and they don’t want the DA getting a closer look at what’s actually going on, where the provincial money is going. So I think that it’s a matter of protection rather than just political principle. The principle is follow the money.

Chris Steyn (04:04.418)

Now, what is the role of the Alex Mafia? How strong is its grip still on these departments?

Martin Williams (04:10.12)

If you… I think their grip is very strong. I think without naming too many names, most of the seven members of the provincial council named by Mashatile, named by Panyaza Lesufi, could be linked to the Alex Mafia. And there’s one in particular who, that’s Maile, he’s always mentioned as Alex Mafia. And interestingly, of course, the Deputy President, who was one of the top leaders that Ramaphosa didn’t really want, he’s often linked as Alex Mafia. So there’s an Alex Mafia connection weaving through all this, I think.

Chris Steyn (05:02.552)

Now, where does the EFF sit in this, the Economic Freedom Fighters?

Martin Williams (05:09.626)

I find that a fascinating question because there are people within the ANC who have lately been very critical of the EFF. But Panyaza Lesufi is not one of those. And it’s the presence of the EFF in the relationship into which the Action SA is now jumping, which creates even more instability because we’ve seen the EFF, even in the recent months, they’ve more than once voted against

a budget, not a budget, but a budget issue that was the 2.5 French Development Bank loan, $2.5 billion. But they voted against that, which they were not supposed to do in terms of what the ANC wanted. So they’re quite capable of turning on their partners, as they did with us. They’ll do it to anybody. You never know from one day to the next which way that what they’re going to do.

It’s specifically been stated that the EFF will be included in this deal. It’s specifically been stated by Panyaza Lesufi a day or two ago that he will include the EFF and Zuma’s MK Party in some way in his dealings, not necessarily in provincial council, but he will accommodate them. The word used was accommodate. So, yeah.

Chris Steyn (06:34.308)

But what presence, sorry, what presence does MK have at the moment?

Martin Williams (06:39.749)

Okay, in the council, of course, in the city council, there’s no MK, because the elections we had recently were for national and provincial, and this is a municipal entity. There are by-elections coming up. There’s two this month and one next month in Joburg, and I don’t know. We haven’t been advised whether MK is fielding any parties, any candidates, but it’s quite possible that they will. Yeah.

Chris Steyn (07:06.146)

Okay, so it’s for the future. Continue Martin.

Martin Williams (07:08.718)

For the future. But Lesufi has, day before yesterday, stated that he will accommodate MKP in his dealings. So that tells you where he goes, because there’s no MK or EFF in the Government of National Unity, but he’s determined to include them in his, accommodate them in his dealings, and his influence means that they will have a bearing in the Johannesburg situation.

Chris Steyn (07:47.578)

Well, the Mayor is now finally gone, but what difference is that going to make, Martin? Because many people thought if he could be ousted that that would make a huge difference.

Martin Williams (07:53.727)

As I said in my Citizen column this morning, the departure of Mayor Kabelo Gwamanda is not going to fix the city. And the simple reason is that instability remains because of the instability within the main party within the city. 

Just to recap for those who don’t know, there are 270 seats in the City Council. 90 of those belong to the ANC, 71 to the DA and 44 to Action SA, 29 to the EFF, and 9 to PA and so on, going down the ranks. 

But basically, if the ANC at this level were more accommodating and weren’t anti-DA in the way that the Lesufi is, we together with the ANC could run Joburg. We wouldn’t need any of the others. You take 90 of theirs and 71 of ours, that’s 161. We’d have a majority in all issues, could pass all budgets and all contentious issues, and there would be no need to be at the whim of small parties or reckless parties, small parties like the PA and the ones below them, and reckless parties like the EFF. But the presence of the EFF in this numbers game also makes it uneasy for Action SA because, and it was announced yesterday, that 192 people would be voting for the Mayor. That means that Action SA is 44 seats.

Martin Williams (09:44.769)

If they don’t vote, they’ll still get their way. In other words, the ANC doesn’t need Action SA to do anything if the EFF is on board. So they could be playing off each other forever, at least until 2026 when the next election happens. 

And ,as I mentioned in a recent column, and I quoted all the figures, but basically ActionSA will never again have 44 seats in Joburg. Their support plummeted by more than 208,000 votes in the recent elections. In words, in the whole of Joburg, they dropped from 280-something to 208. If they were to contest again now, they’d have 16 or 17 seats. And they’ve probably gone down since Mashaba’s announcement that he’s going to get in bed with the ANC. I think they’re finished. So this is their last desperate shot. 44 seats is a lot, but they haven’t used them well, and they’ve played a very bad hand, I think, by getting into bed with the ANC, whatever they want to call it. 

And they’ve actually been played because as I’ve demonstrated with the figures earlier, ANC can go ahead without ActionSA. They don’t need ActionSA on board. They can manipulate all the other figures to get their budgets and so on. 

I think after the formation of the GNU, a lot of people have come round to the idea that a good working relationship between a reasonable ANC and the DA is the best way forward for the country. And certainly for this country’s biggest and richest city, it would make a lot of sense. But we cannot, I don’t make these decisions, but we cannot get into bed with the ANC as currently constituted in the City.

Martin Williams (11:50.397)

So our best shot is to be a very good opposition, look after our residents as best we can and build our support base further. In 2026, we don’t have to get more than 50%, but if we can get more than the ANC, we can have more of a command, which is not impossible at all, not by a long way. We’re so close. If we can have the majority, or so the major say in what happens in Joburg, that’s when Joburg will start to be turned around…not today, not Friday, not next month, not next year until there’s another vote where the DA can overtake the ANC, not necessarily more than 50%, but have that commanding role and actually use that DA difference of getting things done. Everyone knows how we get things done in Cape Town, in Cape province, Midvaal, and so on and so forth, even Howick, you know, where we have that say, that overall say, we can get things done, but not under the whip of a divided and corrupt ANC or with the EFF hanging in the wings or ActionSA. 

In ActionSA and Panyaza, what they have in common is that they detest the DA for different reasons, and that’s what brings them together. But it’s not a constructive relationship where you’re actually trying to get things done for the City, to build the City, to rebuild the City, whatever.

So I’m very critical of that relationship, obviously. And I don’t, so I don’t think it’s going to go anywhere. You asked earlier, I think you started by saying, can this fix Joburg? It’s not. Fix Joburg, you need the DA having a major say and need people to get out there and support the DA, not to rely on other people to do that. We really need that support.

Chris Steyn (13:43.172)

Martin, are you telling the residents of Johannesburg not to expect a miracle now, but to be patient?

Martin Williams (13:51.054)

There definitely won’t be a miracle, it’ll probably get worse, I’m sorry to say. But we, ward councillors in the frontline, will be doing our best to help our residents. But the big decisions about where the money’s going and how things are done, the reckless spending of money and the waste and corruption, that’s not going to stop. That is not going to stop under Dada Marero and the EFF, Action SA and that crew, it’s not going to stop. There’s absolutely no way Action SA can put a spoke in that wheel. It’s just… Mashaba couldn’t do it. He was in charge for more than three years. He couldn’t do that. It’s not going to happen.

Chris Steyn (14:34.02)

Thank you. That was Democratic Alliance Councillor Martin Williams, also the former editor of the Citizen newspaper, speaking to BizNews about the future of Johannesburg. Thank you, Martin.

Martin Williams (14:44.836)

Thanks so much Chris.

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