De Beer: Rising war in the ANC, the GNU

After another week of political volatility on coalition level, United Independent Movement President Neil de Beer names the main contenders for next President of the African National Congress – and predicts SA will stay in the Government of National Unity if it is current International Relations Minister Ronald Lamola, who has “absolutely been schooled” by President Cyril Ramaphosa. However, he believes that if it is current Gauteng Premier Panyaza Lesufi – who is “on a major push to garnish as much power as he can” or Vice President Paul Mashatile “we are going to go in for a rough ride”. De Beer describes the ousting of Tshwane’s Democratic Alliance Mayor Cilliers Brink as “a constructed battle plan forged in the doldrums and cauldrons of the Lesufi cave to absolutely ensure that he and his clan, he and his faction,, take Gauteng”. He analyses the sabre rattling from DA Federal Council Chair Helen Zille at “her arch nemesis” ANC Secretary General Fikile Mbalula. De Beer also comments on Israel’s airstrike on the Hezbollah HQ in Beirut, and warns: “For the first time in a very long time this world is standing at the edge of a full-blown World War.”

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Extended transcript of the interview

Chris Steyn (00:03.434)

Drama in Tshwane and death in Beirut. We talk about that and much more on this Sunday Show with Neil de Beer, the President of the United Independent Movement. Good morning, Neil.

Neil De Beer (00:18.265)

Good morning, it’s a Sunday, may I say, before we get to the tragedy, doom and gloom of the world, Oppie Bokke, we took it back, but in specifically, except for that great win, may I, on our behalf of the Sunday Show, say to Eben Yster the Goat, Etzebeth, well done, 128 tests, the most capped Springbok now in this country; well deserved and may he go on to many many more games. So just wanted to start with a silver lining Chris.

Chris Steyn (00:55.85)

Sadly, I now have to take you back to Tshwane where we saw dramatic scenes last week in the ousting of Democratic Alliance Mayor Cilliers Brink

Neil De Beer (01:07.319)

Blood on the floor, bloed op die water. Yeah, Chris, I was deeply involved, as you know. I made it my absolute focus point since the rumour-mongering that Cilliers Brink would be removed. As you know, I am undisputedly, unashamedly in favour of that young man because I know him, I’ve dealt with him, and I’ve been biting into this piece of shapely political biltong now for the past three months.

So here’s the tragedy. This is not a Tshwane-focused tragedy in my point of view. I call it a tragedy and I can clearly tell you I’m unbiased. I have no friendship linked to any of these outside existing parties. So I can express my feeling and I think the people that listen to me and you on a Sunday want the truth. They want my perspective. If it’s not yours, move on. But here’s mine because I do a lot of homework before I can chit-chat on a Sunday.  

I spoke to all the parties actually involved. The fact that we had a blatant attack on Tshwane, I’d like to refer not to anybody else’s docket of presentation, but Mr. Herman Mashaba. Out of Mr. Herman Mashaba’s mouth came so many truths, and I don’t know if he was supposed to relinquish these truths.

You know, Chris, when I was in the intelligence environment, I got a good tip one day. Someone said, a good intelligence officer does not listen to what a man says. He tries to find out what he doesn’t say. 

Now I am clear, I’ve been in that business 22 years and I listened the whole week to what Herman Mashaba does not say. And this is what he doesn’t say, but he alludes to it. We’ve got to now look at the non-conspiracy, because I’m going to tell you what is the conspiracy, using all the detail that I now have. 

So here it is. First on your line, and if people say it’s not first, let me then recap. Herman Mashaba says in an interview that when he decided and was approached by the ANC Gauteng to get into bed with him. It now comes through that Mr. Mashaba and whomever of the Lesufi clan got together apparently at his house, at his own home, because he says he worked from home. Therefore, it was a personal touch. So Chris, he now says, he lets it out, that the plan was never Tshwane only. And he actually outlines the plan where he says that the Gauteng ANC with him as Herman Mashaba.

Neil De Beer (04:05.709)

He very rarely says ActionsSA. He speaks of Herman Mashaba. So, Herman Mashaba, like him or not, spiltled the beans and he said to us that the plan was always going to be, and he says it, Joburg first, then Ekurhuleni and then Tshwane. He says it.

So let us move away from this Tshwane initiative. This was a constructed battle plan forged in the doldrums and cauldrons of the Lesufi cave to absolutely ensure that he and his clan, he and his faction, if you want to call it that way, take Gauteng. 

So then we hear, because of the almighty’s scream from Tshwane DA wanting to go national to go and beg at the begging bowls of the GNU national to have a direct implication influence on Tshwane, that instead of them doing what Mr. Mashaba says would have been the plan of Joburg, Ekurhuleni, Tshwane, they decided, listen, they decided to immediately after Jo’burg attack Tshwane because they could not keep the horse in the cart from bolting. 

Chris, this is a revelation of a devious structured plan not to look at the citizenry and their rights and taxes and making sure that they’ve got service delivery. But we can now declare, and we have it here on paper, that this was an absolute plan to seize power, to take power for political gain, not for citizens gain. 

And the tremendous scenario that we now get from an insider who I spoke to, who’s in Ekurhuleni, because now the next one will be Ekurhuleni. Funny enough, is that there’s an anti-Lesufi circle within the ANC and within the council of Ekurhuleni. And the person that told me that, who is sits there, said to me that the first scenario at Ekurhuleni was to remove the MMC of Finance who was an EFF member, Mr Dunga. They replaced him twice. Mr Lesufi came there apparently personally to intervene. And then to do the anti-Lesufi game, they took the Chief Whip of the ANC in Ekurhuleni, Mr Dlabathi and they made him MMC, therefore checkmating Lesufi from coming in there appointing his own people.

Neil De Beer (06:59.677)

This is what’s happening. So what is absolutely clear here is it seems citizen must come second, own gain, power must come first with these hyenas at the trough. This will not be the last time that we are going to talk about Tshwane, about Jo’burg, and about Ekurhuleni because, Chris, no matter who has the power,  they had better be able to deliver the services which they now so promised.

Chris Steyn (07:34.986)

Well, Helen Zille has entered the fray with a letter, Neil.

Neil De Beer (07:40.695)

Yes, the letter was fired off on Friday to her arch nemesis, would say, Mr. Fikile Mbalula. Again, here we go. Sabre rattling. Threats of GNU. Threats of working together. So the letter goes to the Secretary General of the ANC stating, another threat.  You know, we had the other one, the one about the BELA Bill. Now we have another one. And on this show, I told you and you concurred and so did many people that wrote to me that this will not be the last time that the threat will be put on the table, but it will have no consequence. 

So the new threat is you either now bring back Cilliers Brink because remember when they ousted him they have 14 days according to their statute to appoint the new mayor. Helen Zille coming in and saying that we better reappoint that gentleman because if you do not then this new thing which they call the Municipal Stabilisation Committee. There is a Municipal Stabilisation Committee that is at the GNU level and that discussion is about stabilising certain metro municipalities from the GNU side. Funny enough, Tshwane was on that list, eThekwini is on that list, etc. 

The fact now is that because of the ousting of the ANC, ActionSA, etc. of Cillers Brink, it is now clear that the DA through Helen Zille has said that if you don’t appoint him again, because they’re going to put him back as a candidate in the next 14 days, Cillers Brink, that if they don’t do so, here’s the threat, the underlining threat in Helen’s letter, that they will walk out and stop the negotiation about the municipal stabilisation scenario for 2026.

Another dagger, another spear, another crack in the GNU.

Neil De Beer (10:15.545)

Just to tell people why the 100 day in politics is always mentioned. So the person that started the 100 day in power was in actual fact President Roosevelt. So in July 1933, when he became and stood for the president, in the first 100 days he made that speech and said, the reflection of my 100 days and my report back is as follows. So it comes back from 1933.

And governments all over the world now do the 100-day in government synopsis. So yeah, 123 days. Some good, some bad, some hope, some fear. And I think if you look at the 100 days of the GNU, it’s not been all bad. The economy has grown. The economy is stabilising. There is some breathing room. We are looking at certain growths financially, if you listen to the clever people.

We’ve had a couple of ministers, not just DA, but we’ve had a couple of ministers, the Mackenzies of the world, the Mchunus of the world, the MacPherson’s of the world, the Leon Schreibers of the world. We’ve had those that are pinnically standing up and saying, our communication must be better. And they’re telling us what they are doing. 

And it’s not all bad. We’ve seen a couple of challenges, Chris. We’ve seen the BELA coming. We’re still waiting for NHI. We are going to have to look at the fight on foreign policy. Those are the threats that are currently looming. 

And obviously now this whole thing about the GNU trying to go to the GPU, trying to go to the GLU. Om daai goet reg te kry vat baie koffie. But I say that we’ve gone 123. There will be continual attacks on the GNU from the outsiders. But at this current moment, I will proclaim the GNU is working for you and for me.

Chris Steyn (12:14.24)

But it has also shone a very stark spotlight, Neil, on the factions in the ANC, hasn’t it?

Neil De Beer (12:24.023)

Yeah, yeah, the spiders are coming outside. Definitely. Ons is besig om die klippe oop te maak, en die vrot kom uit. So it’s coming. It’s being highlighted. You know, people in the dark don’t like light. You know, that’s always that synopsis about dark and light.

So within the ANC, if you look at the history of the ANC, Chris, and I spoke to a very prominent man this week, which I worked with for a long time, who’s no longer at Luthuli House, but he’s willing to share. 

And there are four names that are coming up. Now, Chris, in the history of the ANC, where I was involved for a very long time, since the inception of Mandela becoming president, we always knew in a way who the next president would be. I mean, that’s very clear. When they moved from OR Tambo to Nelson Mandela, it was clear that Mandela would be president. When Mandela took Thabo Mbeki as vice president, we knew that Thabo Mbeki would become president. When Thabo Mbeki became president, he took his deputy, Jacob Zuma, we then knew, no matter what happens, even through all his court cases, no matter what happens, that Zuma would become president. You remember for that little time period of one year, and people forget that Kgalema Motlanthe was not just the vice president of the country, he was the president for one year. He was told to keep it steady.

So after the Motlanthe presidency, we knew that Zuma would come in, Zuma was clear. And then I’ll tell you, from Zuma till today, there has been a disparity in clear leadership of the ANC. And what you’ll see is that people started to vote not for a deputy president in the ANC because of the person’s leadership, because of the person’s patronage, but because of deals of power.

Didi Mabuza was a clear, clear choice of power. I was there. I was at that conference when I was still there. So I’m telling you, Didi Mabuza was never the choice of the people. It was the choice to make Cyril president. And from then, we fell to Paul Mashatile. Paul Mashatile again, power, strategy. And I’m telling you, Paul is not in the camp of Cyril. And now you’ve got the problem of who’s next because according to the ANC’s legacy, Paul Mashatile should be the next president of the ANC. 

Now, where are we? Four names are popping up. One of them, I think, is a dreamer, but the other three, we must not write off. So the dreamer is definitely Fikile. Fikile Droom Baie. He’s got political aspirations, got presidential aspirations, but Nee

Neil De Beer (15:21.367)

The strong ones are the remaining three. So let’s say it here and let’s see destiny unfold. Without a doubt, Mr. Lesufi is on a major push to garnish as much power as what he can and unfortunately for the citizens, Gauteng was the first one that he’s attacking. So his role now is to get as many friends within Mpumalanga, within Limpopo, within KZN, so that he can bring at least five provinces to the conference.  So here it is, number one, Panyaza Lesufi, definitely a name. 

Mr. Ronald Lamola, his name coming up previously as a person who is absolutely on the Cyril camp, who’s absolutely been schooled by Cyril, who’s been tutored, who’s been pushed through ministries, one of the few ministers that was kept to be pushed over and look at the ministries that this man was given by Cyril Ramaphosa. He was given the judiciary. He’s now been given a very important role, which is International Relations. No matter how much he buggers up those relationships, he has been given that task. So without a doubt, I’m telling you, when I get to the synopsis, why he’s been groomed. So don’t write off Ronald Lamola.

And obviously number three is the person who’s still hanging on, who will in the next 12 months fight for his life. And that is the obvious candidate, Mr. Paul Mashatile. 

All of this comes down to a synopsis that every one of these members have got something in the closet and it’s going to depend who’s going to break up in that closet and go ta-da. So we know. Hulle steek goetjies weg. Some small, some big, but a skeleton is a skeleton. 

So we know Paul Mashatile’s charge sheet. How do we know it? Well, the minister, John Deere, Steenhuisen went pre-GNU to the fourth step of the Union Building, did a press statement of how dirty, scullduggery en donnerswil donker Mr. Mashatile is. He gave the dockets.

Neil De Beer (17:46.387)

Those dockets I hope are not also under the current judiciary auspices like the Zondo Commission files who they are saying are dripping wet and starting to disappear. So we know some public stuff of Mashatile. We know that Mr. Lesufi in his track record, moer to op sekere goes. It’s just bad. But he’s power hungry and we know about power. Power corrupts, ultimate power corrupts ultimately. So, kyk na daai mannetjie.

And then we’ve got Mr. Ronald Lamola. In a way, trying to be squeaky, but we also understand that if you take a squeegee and you squeeze it, water will come out. He’s made some absolutely horrific statements in the couple of past years. And the last one was when he said that we were willing, and this is in America, to the Black Business Forum, where he says two weeks ago that we as the ANC as the oppressed had to do a deal with the past oppressors. This is a man who has got the power to speak on our country’s behalf. So the oppressor, previously oppressor -oppressed mantra is coming out of Mr. Lamola. 

So Chris, that’s where we are. These are the puppet lines. It’s going to start looking at, we’ve got to follow the money. Who gets paid by whom, who is supported by whom.

But the end result, where we are today in this cauldron, is there is pro-Cyril and there’s anti-Cyril. And with that, there’s pro-GNU and there is against GNU. If this thing plays out, that 2027 ANC Conference, that any one of those take over, if it’s Ronald Lamola, I predict we’ll stay in the GNU. If it’s anyone of the others Lesufi, currently, or Paul Mashatile? I think we are going to go in for a rough ride. This is my vision, this is my document, I’m not always right. Watch the space.

Chris Steyn (19:58.888)

Neil, on a more positive note, former Judge John Hlope was this last week legally prevented from taking up his seat on the Judicial Services Commission. That’s after the Democratic Alliance went to the High Court.

Neil De Beer (20:14.531)

Damn right, he doesn’t belong there. Judge, doctor, professor, meneer, general, I don’t care about your title. Your title matters not. What matters is your honour. What matters is your credibility. But more than that, what matters is your term of duty to your people. Now we can spin this as much as what we want to. 

In my previous statement, I did say, without a doubt, this is a win for the judiciary. And Chris, when people try to spin race, politics, rubbish, nonsense…anybody who’s trying to put anything but the honour of service and the credibility on the table of an individual is playing politics and you are wrong. This is a fact. This is a statement I’ll make. And this is again my appeal. The gentleman, that’s very high, was told that he influenced or tried to influence as a judge the outcome of a certain process in court on behalf of Jacob Zuma. That’s the charge sheet. Now let’s stop there. That’s got nothing to do with bloody politics. This is honour, your honour. And when you are found guilty, that you as a sitting judge tried to move the outcome of a certain judgment, you are no longer an honour. You are no longer your honour. You are no longer worthy to be called a judge. And that was the guilt. So he’s the only, as I know, sitting judge in this country that was impeached, removed. And in a way he felt guilty because when he came to Parliament under MK, he said he will no longer be calling himself judge, he’s now doctor.

Neil De Beer (22:29.613)

Doctor because he wrote a doctorate about the differentiation as I understand it about traditional law and Roman Dutch law. Well maybe he should have done a doctorate on ethics. Now they then take this impeached judge, they vote him in to go sit on the JSC where they actually interview future judges. Maar is jy nou mal?  Am I the only one that’s sitting back in going no, no?

How can you? It’s like taking a medical doctor who was a senior doctor in a hospital who caused the deaths of many people. They found him guilty, they removed him from the medical board and then they go appoint him on the medical board to actually adjudicate on the future of doctors. That makes no sense. So take your politics away. Take your opinion about race. Amper sê ek its, maar steek hom diep. Because this is not about that. This is about the independence, the honour and the absolute credibility of the judiciary. 

And, Chris, let me tell you, in any country, before that country fell, the only thing that stood in the way was the credibility and the independence of the judiciary. You can go look it up. This country, its citizens must never allow that the judiciary falls – and the call, here I’ll tell you, the call made by that High Court, in a way, Chris, made me feel that we are still in line, that the judiciary is independent and that we’ll make that call. And that call was the right call and I hope it stays.

Chris Steyn (24:21.778)

Neil, before we talk about crime, I want to take you to Beirut where the Israelis have dealt Hezbollah such a devastating blow. What have you heard about that operation?

Neil De Beer (24:31.821)

Yeah, spoke to a guy. Yeah. I spoke to a guy who knows a guy from there. And, Chris, we mustn’t take this as something small. You know, people will always say, Russia and Ukraine is there. Palestine, Gaza, Lebanon, Israel, there. We are very naive. 

For the first time in a very long time this world is standing at the edge of a full-blown World War. You know, I don’t use the word war, as you know, lightly. I partook in a war, not dramatically, but I was part of the Bush War, the Angola War. War is not a nice thing. There’s no winners in war. There’s only losers. Even the victor cannot claim victory. This is a huge thing. The fact that Israel went on that doomsday and struck in Lebanon, Beirut, the capital of Lebanon. 

And, Chris, when they annihilated Mr. Nasrallah…Hassan Nasrallah was the chief in charge of Hezbollah. Now Chris, what makes this even more vital to talk about is that eight leaders now of Hezbolllah has been taken out in this manner.

So it is rumoured that more than 84 bunker-busting cluster bombs was ejected through a fighter jet the F1s on his place of abode, 83 ammunition bombs. They also struck more than 140 targets in Lebanon in those two, three days. 

It therefore means that the war from the Israel synopsis to Palestine and Gaza has now mutated out of Hamas and onto Hezbollah. And what you’ve got is you’ve got two major dragon heads now attacking the Israeli compound. 

But I’m saying no one’s talking, well they are, but no one is actually talking about the actual bigger picture. The actual bigger picture is that if Israel had currently its way, and you could hear it in the talk last week of Benjamin Netanyahu at the United Nations. He actually said it, that this war between Hamas and Hezbollah is the interference in the middle between the real enemy, which Israel has announced a multitude of times, and that is Iran. The fact that Iran and its leadership proclaimed before publicly that Israel should be removed from the face of the earth is a categorical statement that will never go away and therefore Israel will always deem Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran as the main contributor to the future survival of Israel. 

Now this week everybody said that the statement that Iran made. Everybody thought it, everybody knew it.

Neil De Beer (28:10.955)

No, we didn’t. But because we’ve got to sit up now and listen to the statement that Iran made on, I think, Wednesday when they said, we can categorically now tell you that we have nuclear capability. Because this changes a lot of things. It was always surmised, it was always thought, but they made a clear statement. Now, Israel has nuclear capability. Iran says they have nuclear capability. Russia has, China has, India has, Pakistan has, America has, has, has. Many countries now on the outer lines have nuclear capability. The only country in the world, that ever used that capability, and they used it twice, was the United States. And for the rest of the time, that use of the bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki should show a deterrent why we should not use nuclear capability, but it’s become a deterrent. 

This is worrying, Chris, because currently the Middle East scenario has not been the 100-year war between the survival of Palestine and the so-called defense of Israel. This is ironing itself out now to other countries. And I fear that if it moves more, it will knock on to Ukraine, it will knock on to Russia, it will knock on to China, and the rest of the story I think is public.

So, huge step and step up of Benjamin Netanyahu; accusations now coming that he was willing to sign, as we know, last week in America, he was willing to sign a ceasefire, but apparently got such a backlash from the people that are aligned to him and the war in Israel, that the very next day when he got back, he unleashed that operation in Lebanon.

Chris Steyn (30:11.136)

Neil, back in South Africa where kidnapping for ransom is on the rise. And then we also had that killing, mass killing of 17 people last week. I know you’re very involved in crime prevention operations. Talk to us about that.

Neil De Beer (30:28.697)

Yeah, two worrying trends, Chris, and to the families of those that passed away. Lutsikitsiki, that’s on the coastline of the Eastern Cape. I know it very well, just past St Johns. Small little place, nice, beautiful, and 17 people murdered in one shot. 

Big attention showed there. Our Minister of Police, et cetera. But I saw a different attitude, Chris. Fannie Masemola, I must quickly tell you, if I get that right, the National Commissioner. I don’t know. I think a change of attitude. Because under the previous human being, Bheki Tafeltjie Stoeletjie, thank God he’s gone. tThere was a different attitude shown at this. There wasn’t a parade, there wasn’t a mass showing, there wasn’t a blah blah, there was work. The National Commissioner came in, summoned experts, flew in as many specialists, and wasn’t making a big statement of rah-rah, but got down to work. 

So I’m very worried this trend about mass shootings. You know, we’ve had a couple in the Western Cape, we’ve had a couple in Gauteng, and now in the Eastern Cape. We must stop this. 

But the other one, I can see a massive increase in the past year, and that is kidnapping. So in the past two months, we’ve had 18 high profile kidnappings. We’ve had a couple of them where we had successes of return. 

Chris, my knowledge, my intel tells me that everything currently on the, can I call it old crime basis in this country, the crime, the ones that we knew, the murder, the attacks on cash-in-transit, et cetera, et cetera, it’s changing; it’s as if it’s going to a next level. And that level is because the criminal gangs have moved from gang to cartel. Now when you talk a gang, a gang, there’s not much leadership, there’s a congregation of same philosophy and there’s brutality on its own level. But it isn’t steere may I call it on a professional economic level?

Neil De Beer (32:53.597)

I fear South Africa has now moved to the next level. We have heard about the cartels. We have evidence about outside cartels now operating in South Africa. And with that comes a kind of economic brain. And what is absolutely scary, Chris, is that they are amongst us. You will never know who they are. They are huge businessmen. They are CEOs. And some of them infiltrated into politics.

So what you see is this kind of cross-economic crime, where drugs are now at a different level, guns are at a different level, crimes like kidnapping for money, extortion for money, construction mafia for money, it’s all coming down to the economic scale and terrorising a country with terror so that it surrenders the economic side of its nation.  And we should never, never allow that to become the norm. And I think you can see there is a pushback from the police on a daily basis so that we can counter to this.

Chris Steyn (34:06.772)

Thank you, Neil. That was the Sunday Show on BizNews with Neil de Beer, the President of the United Independent Movement. Thank you so much, Neil, for making time and I am Chris Steyn.

Neil De Beer (34:19.757)

Thanks Chris, always.

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