The Amendment: Stepping Back and Leaning In with Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff

The vice president has navigated many firsts in her tenure as the VP and now as the presidential nominee. And so has her husband, as the first second gentleman in history. Doug Emhoff takes a break from his busy campaign schedule to reflect on his journey with Vice President Kamala Harris and how he’s planning for the future.

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On today’s episode

Our host

Errin Haines is The 19th’s editor-at-large and writer of The Amendment newsletter. An award-winning journalist with nearly two decades of experience, Errin was previously a national writer on race for the Associated Press. She’s also worked at the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post.

Follow Errin on Instagram @emarvelous and X @errinhaines. 

Today’s guest

(The 19th/Wonder Media Network)

Doug Emhoff is the Second Gentleman of the United States, Mr. Emhoff is working to share the priorities of the Biden-Harris Administration with people across the country and around the world. Mr. Emhoff earned a B.A. from California State University, Northridge and a J.D. from University of Southern California Gould School of Law. He and Vice President Harris have been married for almost ten years and are part of a modern blended family in which they proudly co-parent Cole and Ella Emhoff.

Follow the Second Gentleman  on X at @DouglasEmhoff

Episode transcript

The Amendment podcast transcripts are automatically generated by a third-party website and may contain typos or other errors. Please consider the official record for The Amendment podcast to be the audio publicly available wherever you listen to podcasts.

Doug Emhoff: 

Sometimes when I just need my parents, I get political analysts, so I just say, “Mom and Dad, just love me up.”  And, it’s like, “No! We need to go 30whatever more days.” I’ll get ’em back.

Errin Haines: 

My mom also a cable news pundit suddenly. And, um, also reviewer of my performances on cable news.

Doug Emhoff: 

Of course. Well, they wouldn’t be parents otherwise.

Errin: 

Exactly.

Errin: 

So we know the old and dated adage that behind every great man is a great woman. We’re gonna amend that. See what I did there? And say that we know that beside any strong leader is an equally strong partner. Vice President Kamala Harris is already the most powerful woman in America, and behind her is a massive support system in her husband, Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff. The Vice President has navigated many firsts in her tenure as the Vice President, and now as a presidential nominee. But so is her husband as the first Second Gentleman in history. Doug Emhoff is more than just Kamala Harris’ husband. He’s also a lawyer, a father, a visiting professor at Georgetown Law and he could be the first First Gentleman in American history. So with less than a month to go in this hugely consequential election, I’m really grateful that Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff had a bit of time to spare for us to reflect on his journey with the Vice President, introduce himself a little bit more to our listeners, and to make his case for Vice President Harris’s leadership here on The Amendment. Welcome, Second Gentleman of the United States Doug Emhoff, to The Amendment.

Doug Emhoff: 

Errin, it’s always good to see you. Thanks for having me.

Errin: 

Thanks for being here. Listen, let’s get into it because it has been a big week. Uh, let’s just get to the most important news first, which is that you were parodied on the season premiere of Saturday Night Live. Andy Sandberg, shout out to you. Did you see the clip?

Doug Emhoff: 

I saw the clip. It was…I really liked it. And, you know, I liked the… he coming out with a little, his version of Dougie. 

Errin:

Wait a minute, Co you know how to Dougie?

Doug Emhoff:

 Well, I don’t that, I don’t think that was the actual Dougie, right? And that’s more this thing. And, but some really funny lines. I love the Second Gentlemensch and the Hanukkah decorations for Christmas and all that. What I think they really got was the connection. He and Maya are so good. But the way they looked at each other and smiled. I said, “That’s us.” So they got the essence, I think, of us as a couple. I think he got the overall gist of me. But yeah, I’ve been watching that show since I was a little kid, and to think I’m a character on it is…it’s pretty incredible.

Errin: 

What did your family think? Were they ribbing you about it too?

Doug Emhoff: 

I think most everyone liked it. You know, there’s some (who) were more like, “He doesn’t look like you,” or whatever. I said, “He kind of did!” And the hair was perfect. But no, I think it was very well received. And, um, you know, the Maya Rudolph, she’s so good, and she really just, like, upped her game in the character and the voice and the intonations. And so it was, uh, yeah, it was well-received on, again, the, all the various group family group chats that I’m on. I heard from all of them/

Errin: 

Well, maybe we will see more of him in this role and he can, you know, maybe even perfect you even more as the weeks go by leading up to this election.

Doug Emhoff: 

We’ll, we’ll see.

Errin: 

But how would you say that you have really approached your own pioneering role?

Doug Emhoff: 

Yeah, I was a lawyer for a really long time, and I loved it. And, you know, to step away from that, at first it was something that was a little sudden. And I was really looking to…how can I approach this role and find purpose and meaning in it. It was really Kamala who pushed me to take on some substantive issues, including, you know, being the first man in the role ever, you know, focus on gender equity. And after Dobbs, that became even more urgent. First Jewish person ever in this role. Focus on hate and antisemitism. A lawyer, like I said, for so long. Focus on access to justice, you know, more lawyers doing more pro bono. So I really tried to take that law firm, you know, work ethic and ability to wanna do the different things and put myself out there.

Doug Emhoff: 

And that’s really how it’s been. And so it was, again, a very abrupt transition. The last day I ever worked as a lawyer was the day Joe Biden, who called her in August of 2020 to be on the ticket. And I didn’t know it at the time that that was gonna be the last day I ever worked as a lawyer. And so it, again, the suddenness of it, but to be able to, you know, support my wife, who I love very much, and to support her in this role as second gentleman as the vice president and now on the campaign trail to hopefully make her the next president and make myself the first First Gentleman. There’s just such a sense of urgency and purpose and, you know, just put my head down and traveling the country back and forth each and every day to help her win.

Errin:

Yeah, I mean, like you say, it was an abrupt transition. But it was a transition for you. I mean, your support for the Vice President is certainly something I’ve seen, you know, covering this administration and even before she took office. I mean, I still have this vivid memory of you just kind of rushing the stage at that campaign event to tackle somebody that got a little too close for comfort. We remember that, uh, I know a lot of people listening remember that, but fast forward to the campaign, you’re crisscrossing this country, you’re touting her accomplishments, you’re making the case for her presidency. I mean, you’ve been making the case  in talking to the American people about her leadership. That’s not really seen as the traditional role of a husband or necessarily a masculine thing to do, but even, I mean, you transitioned into this role, um, was that difficult to give up? ?

Doug Emhoff: 

Yeah, so it’s a marriage of equals. It still is, and it always has been, always will be. And, uh, look, I love my career. Make no mistake. I was successful. I was good at it. There are times I miss it, especially when I’m reading the trades and entertainment thinking, “Oh, I would’ve been on that matter.” And, uh, it’s funny, when I still talk to my old legal colleagues or business colleagues, I just wanna, you know, talk about the biz and they just wanna talk about, you know, the campaign or politics. But it’s like I said, when your wife has an opportunity to move up professionally, and this was to go from the United States Senate to be Vice President of the United States. For us as a couple, something we talked about what it would mean for me and my career, and what it would mean for her and her career, but also for the country.

Doug Emhoff: 

It really was a no-brainer to take a step back from my career to be there for her as her partner, as her husband, but then to be there as Second Gentleman to assist her and President Biden in the administration. And then professionally then to find that the satisfaction and joy in the role which I had be, which I have done, leaning into these substantive issues, and also so many other things where the president entrusted me to take on several presidential delegations, whether it’s inaugurations, whether it’s Olympics, Paralympics. So it’s been an incredible experience that has, like I said, it’s been very substantive and you’re there representing your country. And I’m a patriot. I love my country. So to be able to express my love for my wife by supporting her so she can achieve her career goals and work for the country, and then myself being able to represent the administration and represent the country that I love so much, it’s been really satisfying.

Doug Emhoff: 

But she supports me every much as in the way that I support her, so it doesn’t feel like it’s affecting my masculinity or anything like that at all. And I love when I’m out in the country doing events and people come up to me — whether it’s a dad and a daughter saying, you know,
“You’ve been an inspiration for what you’ve done to support your wife.” Uh, I’ve, I’ve had women say, “Hey, look, I went for that promotion, or I put my hat in the ring for elected office because of what you’ve done and my husband has supported me be after seeing what you’re doing for her.” So it’s really satisfying to see that. And again, it doesn’t make me any less of a man because I took a step away. That’s called supporting your partner, supporting your spouse, and also supporting your country.

Errin: 

Yeah. Uh, well, you certainly, I mean, because you were the first man in the role of vice presidential spouse, you certainly had to learn how to be second gentlemen. But, I wonder, you know, almost four years into this job, what have you learned about yourself serving in this role?

Doug Emhoff: 

What a great question. You know, I learned how much I love public service. I was in the private sector my entire career, again, up until four years ago. And while I was married to Kamala, a public servant, I was always passionate about, you know, politics and various issues. But to actually do it full time, it’s just very rewarding. It’s so rewarding to be able to travel the country and listen to folks and what they’re going through and the issues that are facing everyday Americans. And then when I get home, it’s like, “Hey, Dougie, how was your day? Where were you? What’d you hear?” And then I’m able to tell these folks I’m about to go home and I live with the vice president. I’m going to tell her about our conversation. And those conversations go right to her, and then it’s into the administration, and that, you know, in turn dictates what they’re doing. And so for me,  it’s really empowering to be able to be a part of that and to see, uh, people and to be able to help people. So, I love it. I am excited about it. I’m excited to be first gentleman when she’s, uh, the next President of the United States to continue in this role.

Errin: 

We’ll be right back after a word from our sponsor. Yeah. I want to back up to the start of the campaign, which obviously looked very different than it does now. But even then, I know that you and the Vice President had a conversation with each other. You had a conversation with your families about what you expected your 2024 to look like, given the stakes of this very consequential election for so many Americans. Can you share what those conversations were and really how you think back on that moment considering where things are now?

Doug Emhoff: 

Well, look, this is such a binary choice in this 2024 election, and that was certainly true when Joe Biden was at the head of the ticket. And it’s certainly true with Kamala Harris at the head of the ticket. Donald Trump was not a great president when he was president. He has gotten worse. The things that he’s saying, the positions that he is putting forth — whether it’s Project 2025, a Supreme Court with the Dobbs decision, and the things he’s saying now — it is just not viable. He’s unfit for office. We cannot go back, as Kamala says. So we knew whether, uh, wherever she was on that ticket as a family, that we all had to work full-time to make sure that, um, Donald Trump was defeated. And then when the switchover occurred, that urgency was even more. So, every day that goes by, we feel that urgency. Our accountability to this mission, the focus and discipline in which we are approaching it, the fact that we’re not gonna be distracted by any nonsense that is being thrown our way, and we’re gonna just take these next 30 some odd days and do everything we can to put the case out there, that Kamala Harris must be the next President of the United States.

Errin: 

I think part of that has been certainly very quickly kind of trying to get the American people familiar with who the vice president is. That’s not traditionally a role that, you know, some people may be paying super close attention to, but now that the Vice President is the Democratic presidential nominee, introducing herself to voters is so important, and you are a huge part of that. During your speech for the Democratic National Convention this summer, the American people really got a chance to hear from you about your modern blended family, literally, in the national spotlight. That felt like a really important moment. And I just wonder what you can say about how you were thinking about that speech, what you wanted the American people to learn about you and the vice president.

Doug Emhoff: 

So I took it very seriously. I put a lot of work into that speech in a very short amount of time. We didn’t have a lot of time to do it. And, um, it’s interesting ’cause I didn’t know when I was gonna be speaking at first, and then I found out, “You’re going prime time Tuesday night with the Obamas.” So it even ratcheted up to pressure. But I really wanted the speech to accomplish a few things. One: introduce myself a little bit, because even though I’ve been Second Gentleman myself for almost four years, people may not know who I am. So the first part was a little bit about me, where I came from, the big beautiful blended family, et cetera. And then part two was really an introduction to the Kamala Harris that I know, who I met on that blind date, who entered my family at a time when I was looking to meet someone like her.

Doug Emhoff: 

And she was there and she got to know the kids, fell in love with the kids and all that beautiful stuff. The joyful part. And then ended it with, “She’s ready to be president and commander in chief day one.” The warrior part. So a little bit about me, a little bit about her, the joyful warrior, the joyful part, and then end with the warrior part. And, it was really a play in three acts. And it was a lot of work to get the words right. And it was a lot of work to kind of make sure I could withstand doing it live in front of 20,000 people and millions watching on TV where I’ve gotten used to a lot of public speaking. I was a trial lawyer, you know, I’ve always prided myself and my composure and confidence under stressful situations.

Doug Emhoff: 

But that one was, uh, that was it. That was the ultimate one. And then the fact that my son, Cole, and my ex Kirsten produced that reel before my speech, which was so beautiful and emotional to watch. And then having our son, Cole, physically introduced me. It just took a lot out of me emotionally to see that. So I had to deal with all that. And then nothing prepares you for walking out in front of 20,000 people live. And I’d done a walkthrough to get a sense of the vastness of the auditorium, but once you’re in there, and the cheering and the Doug signs, and I said, “Okay, man, you just gotta do this”. I took a deep breath and I just went for it. And I tried to do it slowly and calmly and confidently and as myself. And I think we accomplished that. It was great. It was fun. And then when it was over, big, “Whew, okay, that’s done.” And then I could kind of enjoy the next few days of what was a great convention.

Errin: 

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, listen, having spent some time with you, I can definitely say that that was your authentic self on that stage, and thank you. And that the speech that you gave really did give the American people a window into who you are and into your marriage in a way that I don’t think I’d even really been aware of prior to, you know, just seeing some of the images of the two of you. And, yeah, I mean, I really do think that that further helped to introduce her, but really helped to introduce, you know, the people who could be the first couple, the people who could be, you know, the first family, potentially, in this White House. So, another thing in that speech: You also brought up meeting Kamala Harris and that voicemail, which I will not make you revisit here. But I do wanna ask you about your first date, because I understand, you know, she was already this high profile California politician at the time, and you were getting to know each other and she wanted to make sure even then that you could handle kind of who she was.

Errin: 

Can you tell that story?

Doug Emhoff: 

Yeah, so, we had talked on the phone for an hour. So we really, I think, that was almost like the first date. We got a lot of the, you know, the who are you, you know, niceties outta the way. So our actual first date felt like a second date, so we kind of got right into it. So we walk into this restaurant in LA. First, she’s surprised that, “wow, you know so many people.” And like,
Yeah, I mean, I’m an entertainment lawyer here. I know folks!” And of course, people knew who she was. She was our attorney general, and people kept coming over her to say hi. So she said something like, you know, “Are you gonna be okay with this?” ‘Cause we already knew, it just felt like this thing was actually gonna work out even on that first date.

Doug Emhoff: 

We just knew. It was like, you just felt it. And so she said, “Is this something you can handle?” I said, “Look, I’m very confident. I have a big ego. I just wanna make sure that, you know, you pay attention to me and I pay attention to you.” And that’s kind of been our motto throughout all this. And we’ve never lost that. Now, even now with all this stuff happening, we still make sure we’re paying attention to each other and being there for each other no matter what, and started on that first date. And here we are. And it’s still happening.

Errin: 

Also, sounds like you two are no strangers to figuring out how to operate on a compressed calendar to get to big moments. So.

Doug Emhoff: 

That’s right. That’s right. 

Errin:

That’s a thing that you know. Well, listen, you mentioned some of the work that you have done as second gentlemen, particularly around issues like antisemitism, gender equity, fighting for reproductive rights — all things that we have discussed. But I mean, I do wonder if you can share with our listeners, just really, especially in the two years since the Dobbs decision, why is it so important for men to be involved in the conversation around reproductive rights?

Doug Emhoff: 

Yeah. You and I have talked about Dobbs a couple of times over the two years. And, as you know, and your listeners know, and your readers know, it’s so far worse than anyone could have thought. It’s a crisis. It’s a full blown crisis. I call it a hellscape. Women are dying. We know that. The mortality rate of women in Texas has gone through the roof after Dobbs in the two plus years. You’ve seen the horror stories. Women who’ve come out to tell their stories. But it’s also the men who’ve come out to tell their stories too about families just trying to have a baby. And there are complications, and they live in a state like Texas where they cannot get the medical care they need until they’re on death’s door. And this is just disastrous. It’s disastrous policy.

Doug Emhoff: 

It’s disastrous medical policy. And so women are dying, women are getting sick, doctors are leaving the profession, doctors are leaving those states because they can’t do the care that they were trained to give. There’s also potential liability, criminal, civil or other otherwise. And so now women aren’t just getting routine care like pap smears that they need. So it’s exacerbating the crisis. So this is not just an issue for women, it’s an issue for men, it’s an issue for families. And I’ve been talking about this for two plus years, and then the additional headed on for people to care — ’cause if you recall, in the Dobbs decision, Justice Thomas and the concurring opinion said, “Let’s take a look at other rights based on the Griswold right of privacy in which the Roe v Wade decision was based.” And that includes the right to marry who you wanna marry, love who you wanna love, contraception.

Doug Emhoff: 

So, so many of these other rights are now at risk that affect everyone. So it’s something that I talked to our son, Cole, about, who’s 30. Got married about a year ago. His wife, Greenley, is from Texas, and, you know, maybe she went to UT Austin. It’s a great city for a lot of things, but if they wanna start a family, that’s off the table right now because of the basically complete ban. And, and so it’s affecting all kinds of things. And then you heard the vice president talk about it, where if you’re in one of those states and you even have the money to travel and you need care and you’re alone, you’re traveling with strangers, you have to take time off from work. Maybe you need childcare for your other children. She also talks about, um, you know, this no abortion with… it doesn’t matter even if it’s rape or incest.

Doug Emhoff: 

And again, the cruelty, especially if it’s a minor who’s been the victim of incest. And we saw the commercial that we put out. And then forcing someone like that to have to carry, when a crime has been committed. So there’s so many reasons why we all need to care about this, and this is what they’re running on: a national abortion ban. This is what project 2025 is. This is what…where Dobbs is headed. This is why Donald Trump on the national stage couldn’t admit that he would veto a national abortion ban. He never said those words, despite whatever cleanup they’re trying to do. That’s what they’re trying to do here. So we just can’t have it. The vast majority of the American people believe in freedom and rights. And every time this has been on the ballot from the time of Dobbs, freedom has prevailed. It didn’t matter what state. So this is one of the many reasons to vote for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz.

Errin: 

Yeah, I mean, this also feels like just, really, a role that you have embraced as second gentlemen. Just another indicator of your full circle status. You have been, just, this really effective messenger on this issue, on other issues around gender for the vice president. And I know that that has meant increased attention and scrutiny and attacks on you as well. And so I wanna ask you about that, particularly. I mean, we’re also coming into this conversation where there were allegations made against you. I wanna take a minute to point out that these were allegations that were reported in a British tabloid and went largely unreported in US media outlets. And I just wonder how you’re thinking about that. Is this the cost of attempting to change thinking and behavior around gender equity?

Doug Emhoff: 

Well, I’m not gonna let anything distract me. Nothing. Nothing’s gonna distract the vice president from our mission at hand, which is: Donald Trump is unfit for office. He cannot come back to office. We need to elect Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, and there’s nothing gonna stop me or her from getting the message out. Whatever’s thrown our way to try to distract us. And it’s just a distraction from what they’re trying to do. And look, see my earlier conversation, they’re trying to impose a world of Dobbs, a world of Project 2025, on a country that doesn’t want it. The vast majority do not want to live that way. And so the only way to prevent that is to make sure in these next 30 some odd days that we are not distracted from getting the word out that this country must elect Kamala Harris and Tim Walz.

Errin: 

Yeah, I mean, and that is the case that you’ve been making out on the campaign trail. What are you telling voters about why Kamala Harris is the right person for the job?

Doug Emhoff: 

So, you know, again, we can make the case why Donald Trump is so unfit, and you know, we all know those reasons. Look, she’s ready to be president on day one. She’s ready to be commander in chief on day one. The qualifications are off the charts. It’s probably one of the most, if not the most qualified person, to be in this position. Prosecutor for 20 years, putting the worst of the worst folks in jail — murderers, rapists, sex offenders, transnational gangs, taking them all on. California Attorney General where she took on the big banks, shut down predatory lenders and for-profit colleges that were scamming folks and so many other things. United States Senator from California, largest state in the country representing 40 plus million people in the Senate and doing that with distinction for four years.

Doug Emhoff: 

And, of course, being vice president for almost four years, which is the ultimate training ground to be president, because what are you doing? You’re in the Oval Office with the president, helping make some of the hardest decisions, putting forth policies that have helped millions and upon millions of Americans, whether it’s through the infrastructure, bringing chips, manufacturing back, bipartisan gun legislation. There’s so many things that she’s accomplished as vice president. And her in the situation room. Four years  in this situation room with all these issues affecting our national security. She’s been there. And three, she is already a world leader. She doesn’t have to train to be one. She already is one. She’s taking, I think, almost 25 trips abroad. You heard her on the debate stage talking about her meetings with Zelenskyy and others. She was just with Zelensyky, standing shoulder to shoulder with him a week or so ago while Trump was bragging about his relationship with Putin while with Zelenskyy. So there’s such a stark difference on every level. So she is ready for this. She is qualified and she’s ready to be a leader on day one, both as president and as commander in chief.

Errin: 

Well, Second Gentlemen, thank you so much for your time. The last thing I wanna ask you, we talked about what Vice President Harris might look like as President Harris. Should you become the first first gentleman, what would be an area that you would want to focus on, other than obviously the White House Christmas decorations?

Doug Emhoff: 

That was a funny joke too, by Andy Samberg, “Which will be Hanukkah!” Just don’t worry. I will uphold my duties.

Errin:

Confirmed.

Doug Emhoff:

All the protocols and all the ceremonial stuff. I think it’s gonna be more of the same. Where first job is, you know, be a great husband to her, be supportive. She takes on this role. And then as first gentlemen, just lean into substantive issues, continuing the fight against hate and antisemitism, continuing to fight for rights and gender equity. And also, where else can I be useful? Where else can I, you know, do good for the country and be a representative of our great nation, both domestic and abroad? And just pitch in where I can and just be there for her and be there for the administration and be there for this great country.

Errin: 

Second Gentlemen Emhoff, thank you so much. Good luck out there on the campaign trail. Have a Whataburger for me. I know you’ve got that order down now. So…

Doug Emhoff: 

The number two. The number two with jalapenos and spicy ketchup.

Errin: 

Spicy ketchup, indeed. Well, listen, see you out there on the campaign trail. Less than a month to go.

Doug Emhoff: 

Thanks, Errin. Great to see you. 

Errin:

You too. 

Doug Emhoff:

Bye-Bye.

Errin: 

That is this week’s episode of The Amendment, which is also a newsletter, by the way, that I write. You can subscribe to it for free by going to 19thnews.org, which is also where you can find all of our great journalism around gender, politics, policy and the 2024 election. For the 19th and Wonder Media Network. I’m Errin Haines. Talk to you again next week. 

The Amendment is a co-production of the 19th News and Wonder Media Network. Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan, Terri Rupar, Faith Smith and Emily Rudder. The show is edited by Grace Lynch and Julia B. Chan, produced by Brittany Martinez, Grace Lynch and Luci Jones, and post-production support from Julie Bogen, Lance Dixon, and Wynton Wong. Artwork by Aria Goodman. Our theme music is composed by Jlin.

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